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Do you think the octopus club should introduce a second raid team?

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#12727901 Sep 22, 2016 at 12:23 AM
Guild Master
58 Posts
Now that the raids are open and available we have to settle in on a few things in order to make progression. First thing is first though, we will be determining who will be the raid team's main tank and off tank. This be determined by the end of next week and it will be determined by 3 criteria!

1) Communication

2) Mechanic Execution

3) Healing required

For those of you looking to tank, just remember that I never guaranteed a tank spot for anyone....not even Palrphanu. So I hope you took some time to work on your DPS.

Side note: A second option could be available but may not be in the best interest of everyone. Check out the poll attached to this thread.
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#12727905 Sep 22, 2016 at 12:31 AM
Veteran Octopus
39 Posts
I definitely do not think that we will have the necessary class breakdowns to keep up with two groups indefinitely and personally I wouldn't be very interested in that anyways since it will split our community into A group and B group. Then you get into questions of who goes into which group and keeping things balanced so it isn't a "good group" and "bad group" situation and that just seems like way more potential drama than it's worth.

As far as I know, there's no real need for two groups except if people are adamant about all tanking? I think we have flexibility with heals/dps and it's not like our raids had TOO many people ever.
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#12727909 Sep 22, 2016 at 12:36 AM
Guild Master
58 Posts
I would agree.
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#12729920 Sep 22, 2016 at 04:34 PM
Veteran Octopus
13 Posts
While I don't mind the idea of having 2 different groups, I've always liked larger raid groups. Call me crazy but even with the wipes it is somehow more fun when more people are involved.
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#12730097 Sep 22, 2016 at 05:47 PM
Veteran Octopus
35 Posts
While I'm not necessarily against multiple raid groups, I'm not sure it would have much benefit in this particular scenario for this group. Figuring out who would go into what group would probably be a giant pain. Would it be determined by class breakdown? Performance? Friends? Who would lead these? Would they run concurrently? Would there have to be a certain number of officers in each group? What happens when/if we got to mythics and there's the hard line of 20 people?

I feel like these questions (more rhetorical than not) show me personally that it would possibly splinter the group and do more harm than good.

Tanking is super fun this expansion, buut it's also very easy to keep an off-spec artifact power level almost on par (one behind) with the main. Easier than splitting groups, I'd argue.
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#12731867 Sep 23, 2016 at 12:15 PM
12 Posts
It's a toss up.

I like the idea of two groups because it's frustrating to know what you're doing and wipe due to easily avoided issues.

I have nothing against people personally, but if they want to raid then they should put forth a little more effort. I've primarily tanked since Burning Crusade (Vanilla to be honest, but people had little love for Bear tanks) but switched to be of better use to the raid/guild. It's insulting that people then show up to raid wearing greens and WoD gear.

Having one group reduces drama but increases resentment and will eventually lead to turn over and people not looking forward to raiding. There is still drama, but instead of it being groups of people complaining, it becomes people becoming miserable one at a time, based on when their patience runs up.
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#12732099 Sep 23, 2016 at 02:08 PM
Veteran Octopus
23 Posts
I don't think there should be a second team, it takes the camaraderie out of the guild. In response to the tanking spots not being cemented, addressing this earlier on would have given those (or just me) who put all their eggs in one basket a chance to figure something else out. I put all mine into tanking, I do have an unholy weapon but doesn't have any artifact power and I wouldn't play unholy to raid. I'll get started on a dps toon just in case.
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#12732322 Sep 23, 2016 at 04:05 PM · Edited 3 years ago
Veteran Octopus
39 Posts
#12731867 Koshea wrote:

It's a toss up.

I like the idea of two groups because it's frustrating to know what you're doing and wipe due to easily avoided issues.

I have nothing against people personally, but if they want to raid then they should put forth a little more effort. I've primarily tanked since Burning Crusade (Vanilla to be honest, but people had little love for Bear tanks) but switched to be of better use to the raid/guild. It's insulting that people then show up to raid wearing greens and WoD gear.

Having one group reduces drama but increases resentment and will eventually lead to turn over and people not looking forward to raiding. There is still drama, but instead of it being groups of people complaining, it becomes people becoming miserable one at a time, based on when their patience runs up.


I don't think that your concern is really with the number of groups as much as it is with the overall tone of the raid group within the guild and how it deals with adversity and failure. Making two groups will not increase overall happiness of the guild because it sends the message that some players don't matter as much and don't get to have the same opportunities which we've avoided for the past half year I've been here, at least. It would create MORE resentment with having a "good" group and a "bad" group.

That being said, I think some of your concerns and your overall point is definitely valid. We can't just ignore problems and hope they fix themselves. We need to educate people if they don't understand something, have a discussion on just how serious our progression is going to be this xpac/patch, and communicate those expectations with everyone that's wanting to raid. I think the main issue that we've had so far is that everyone is coming into it expecting different things and we weren't really behaving cohesively before. I think now that Dante is back that things will improve since he is usually the one that passes down executive decisions and there doesn't have to be any hesitation about telling people yes/no for roles, etc.

I'd hate to see this guild, which I joined because of how cool everyone is and how willing to help they seemed, turn into something uber competitive. Now, sometimes it's necessary to discipline someone for refusing to even attempt to improve or maybe even just not being good enough (once you get to heroics and such), but I don't think that's a decision to make while we've only had ~3 hours of raid time together.
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#12734277 Sep 24, 2016 at 01:05 PM · Edited 3 years ago
Veteran Octopus
17 Posts
Outside of mythic, I don't think it matters if we do one group or two.

As long as long as it's not the same people going into each group every tues/thurs we can then get experience for those with tank/heals/dps offspecs for the eventuality of missing people or people who never come back online or whatever.

This is a video game, if you're getting mad at a videogame you're playing it very wrong and need to reevaluate your attitude you bring into a videogame.

That said raids have expectations there can only be so many tank/heals/mdps/rdps. Sacrifices have to be made, and that is nothing personal to anyone.

You must also be willing to be a teamplayer and come ready and willing to put forth your best effort to your raid by having flasks(when they're not so expensive ofc), potions, etc with you every raid. As well as looking up boss fight mechanics before raid night, the videos for the bosses wont take a lot of your time. Being in coms is 10000% absolute must no matter what.
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#12736408 Sep 25, 2016 at 12:46 PM
10 Posts
One thing that makes our guild differ and so much better than others is that we truly want everyone to succeed. That being said we do need to take the proper steps to insure that everyone has the tools available.

Lets be honest we had quite a few people that where being out DPS'd by the tanks during the raid. Once we get past normal we all know that a low damage output will hinder the raid greatly. What I believe what we should focus on now is making sure that everyone knows the basics of raid mechanics and the rotation/ stat priority of their class. How do we do that? Here are some options!

1. Assign a class leader. Back in the day when when we had 40 man raids we would all meet up by class for 30 min twice a week and go over everything from specs/ rotations to how each other are doing on a personal level. That was when it was raid time we always had people keep us accountable and everyone knows what there class should be doing on each fight.

2.. Break the normal routine. Every once in a while stop running with the same 5 people and grab a guildie that you never run with.

3. Making the hard decisions: We all know that we get that special snowflake who refuses to be a team player. Sometimes you have to cut the fat..

So back on topic when it comes to tanks I would recommend we keep 1 main and cycle out the off tank.

Thank you for your time
My name is Karl Franz but YOU can call me Emperor!
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#12741052 Sep 27, 2016 at 06:36 AM
Veteran Octopus
24 Posts
I can't help but feel responsible for this, and for that, I apologize. It was always my intention to level up a DPS class to raid with, but I just really enjoyed the mechanics of playing a Blood Death Knight.

I kept hoping to finish Legion content so I could start working on an alt, but as we've all seen, Legion content takes a looooooong time to get through. I'm still not quite Exalted with the Nightfallen!

Anyway, if it helps the team, I'll sit out of raids until I get a DPS class geared up. I have a 110 Demon Hunter now, I just need to get him some ilvls. Although, I guess I could just figure out Frost or Unholy, though I would probably do even less damage than I do now; those Artifacts are untouched.

( quick related question: what's so bad about having a DPS spec'ed as a tank, if they do more damage than many other DPS? I've tried looking it up, but nobody really has an answer, other than, "Why, it just isn't done! It would be slightly more complex! Your raid team would be too powerful!" )

Again, I really am sorry about all this. I knew that our raid team had two solid tanks when I first joined the guild, I just got so caught up in playing my Death Knight that it was the only character I had available when the Emerald Nightmare launched.
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#12741783 Sep 27, 2016 at 11:43 AM
Veteran Octopus
35 Posts
#12741052 Primeboom wrote:

I can't help but feel responsible for this, and for that, I apologize. It was always my intention to level up a DPS class to raid with, but I just really enjoyed the mechanics of playing a Blood Death Knight.

I kept hoping to finish Legion content so I could start working on an alt, but as we've all seen, Legion content takes a looooooong time to get through. I'm still not quite Exalted with the Nightfallen!

Anyway, if it helps the team, I'll sit out of raids until I get a DPS class geared up. I have a 110 Demon Hunter now, I just need to get him some ilvls. Although, I guess I could just figure out Frost or Unholy, though I would probably do even less damage than I do now; those Artifacts are untouched.

( quick related question: what's so bad about having a DPS spec'ed as a tank, if they do more damage than many other DPS? I've tried looking it up, but nobody really has an answer, other than, "Why, it just isn't done! It would be slightly more complex! Your raid team would be too powerful!" )

Again, I really am sorry about all this. I knew that our raid team had two solid tanks when I first joined the guild, I just got so caught up in playing my Death Knight that it was the only character I had available when the Emerald Nightmare launched.




To me there seems to be two generally separate issues. One is the tank thing, easily solved I think. The second is splitting groups based on skill/tone, which Shrykos touched upon a bit in his last post.

Based on logs from the first week of EN, well performing DPS will always be above tanks (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10/#boss=1853&difficulty=3&class=Any). There are some cases where the gap is closes a bit, but that will probably see a bit of change with the buffs that came out today.
So of course, if a tank is out DPSing a DPS spec, that speaks more to the performance of the DPS. It was the first week of raid, however. People are learning mechanics, learning which talent set-ups are best for which fight, etc. So DPS might not be cutting edge right out of the gate. It's something that will improve over the weeks.

As I mentioned before, playing catch-up on a second spec is rather easy. I got boomy spec on Bellevan caught up (1 less trait) in a day. That said, it would be nice to have a demon hunter, I think, since surprisingly we don't have any in raid at the moment.
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#12741943 Sep 27, 2016 at 12:46 PM
Veteran Octopus
39 Posts
On phone so I can't be wordy, but tanks focusing on dps can pull aggro at an Inopportune moment and wipe the raid or seriously mess things up with boss positioning.

Also, don't worry about your artifact leave being lower when switching to unholy or frost. A day of wq's will get you to one of your golden abilities and probably level 13-14 weapon level which is more than enough for normals.

It's better to experience the fights playing sub optimally than to sit out while waiting to learn to be perfect
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#12742801 Sep 27, 2016 at 06:44 PM
Veteran Octopus
24 Posts
Haha, I'm much more concerned with learning a new playstyle than I am with my Artifact.

I've been Blood since WotLK, back when Frost was the tank spec.
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